Kevin Mulrane on this episode
Eddie Reynolds, founder and CEO of Union Square Consulting, hosts Kevin Mulrane, a 7-time CRO and sales leader, to discuss how Revenue Operations teams can align with leadership and drive strategic impact. Mulrane brings decades of experience building scalable RevOps functions across high-growth startups and mature organizations, and speaks candidly about the difference between tactical RevOps work and true strategic partnership with revenue executives.
The core challenge RevOps faces is that earning a seat at the table requires demonstrating value through insights and strategic thinking, not just implementing systems. Most RevOps teams spend their time on reactive work—fielding ad-hoc requests, managing data entry, maintaining reporting dashboards—and rarely get the space to identify what's really holding back the revenue engine. Mulrane and Reynolds both emphasize that RevOps functions must make time (sometimes outside normal hours) to understand the go-to-market strategy, identify obstacles to that strategy, and bring data-driven recommendations back to leadership with a plan.
The episode reframes RevOps from a cost center or IT support function into a strategic growth function. When RevOps acts as a neutral third party with no political ego, it becomes what Mulrane calls a "single source of truth" for the business. The best CROs Mulrane has worked with didn't ask RevOps to tell them what they wanted to hear—they asked RevOps to tell them what's really happening and why. This shift from reporting numbers to explaining the "why" behind outcomes is what separates a true RevOps leader from a systems administrator.
The conversation covers practical frameworks for prioritizing RevOps work through OKRs, starting with 3-4 macro goals and identifying what not to do. Reynolds and Mulrane stress the importance of being proactive rather than reactive, thinking quarters ahead about what infrastructure and data will be needed as the company scales. They also discuss how RevOps can balance quick wins with longer-term strategic initiatives, and how a one-person RevOps function can begin to shift from pure tactical work toward strategic partnership with leadership.
What we cover in this episode
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2:30
Earning a Seat at the Table RevOps must earn leadership access by demonstrating strategic insights and deep understanding of go-to-market strategy, not simply by holding a RevOps title.
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8:45
RevOps as Chief of Staff to the CRO The most effective RevOps teams function as trusted advisors to the CRO, freeing up executive time for what only they can do while handling analysis, process mapping, and strategic planning.
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15:20
Insights vs. Reports There is a critical difference between running a Salesforce report and actually understanding what the data means, including why deals are closing or stalling and what levers drive revenue.
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22:00
RevOps as Neutral Third Party RevOps must be willing to tell leaders the hard truth about performance and results, not just validate what leadership wants to hear, in order to build credibility and trust.
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28:15
OKRs and Strategic Planning Using OKRs to set 3-4 high-level macro goals and explicitly deciding what RevOps will not do allows teams to focus on highest-impact initiatives and avoid being stretched too thin.
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36:40
Proactive vs. Reactive Planning RevOps should think 6-12 months ahead about infrastructure and data needs to enable scaling, rather than constantly reacting to requests and building systems in crisis mode.
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46:30
Balancing Strategic and Tactical Work RevOps must balance immediate fire-fighting with longer-term strategic initiatives by mapping a path from today's state to a desired future state, even if that takes 12-24 months.
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55:00
Combining Data with Sales Intuition The most effective revenue decisions blend quantitative data with qualitative insights from frontline reps and leaders, not pure analytics, to truly understand deal dynamics and customer behavior.
The lines worth sharing
RevOps has that opportunity to be that third party single source of truth about what's really going on in the business.
Kevin Mulrane · 22:00
If a CRO has a ten million dollar target, that means every hour they spend working is worth five thousand dollars. That's a tremendous amount of money to waste on activities that don't fit their skill set.
Eddie Reynolds · 9:15
When I was a CRO making fewer decisions that had much larger impact, I had a fantastic RevOps team guiding those decisions with good data, not telling me what I wanted to hear.
Kevin Mulrane · 19:45
RevOps is there to help save a company from itself by being neutral and providing that third party approach.
Jerry (Head of Delivery, Union Square Consulting) · 25:30
Common questions from this episode
What is the difference between RevOps reporting and RevOps insights?
Reports show the numbers; insights explain why those numbers exist and what to do about them. True insights require digging into deal-by-deal behavior, comparing rep performance, identifying bottlenecks, and forecasting the impact of improvements. Any person can run a report; it takes strategic thinking to turn data into actionable recommendations for leadership.
How can a one-person RevOps team balance strategic work with tactical demands?
Start by mapping where you are today versus where you want to be in 12-24 months. Identify quick wins and small improvements that show leadership value. Break work into recurring activities (strategic planning, dashboards, coaching) and one-time projects. Use an intake system to batch ad-hoc requests. Begin with one strategic initiative that directly supports revenue goals to prove the model works.
Why should RevOps act as a neutral third party instead of trying to make leadership look good?
RevOps credibility depends on trust. If you only report good news or craft narratives to please your manager, leaders won't believe your data when problems emerge. A truly neutral RevOps function tells the truth about what's working and why, which enables leadership to make better decisions and builds long-term influence and a seat at the table.
How should RevOps align with the CRO?
RevOps should function as a chief of staff to the CRO, handling analysis, process mapping, and planning so the CRO can focus on strategy, hiring, and executive decisions. This maximizes the high-cost executive's time and ensures RevOps provides proactive insights and recommendations rather than waiting for requests.
What is a RevOps roadmap and why does it matter?
A RevOps roadmap outlines the strategic goals, quarterly OKRs, and key initiatives RevOps will pursue—and crucially, what it will not do. It ties RevOps work to business outcomes and helps leadership understand priorities. It prevents RevOps from becoming an IT help desk and shifts the function toward strategic partnership with revenue leadership.
How can RevOps use data to improve sales rep performance?
Look at close rates, sales cycles, and deal progression by stage and by rep. Find top performers and identify what they do differently (shorter cycles, higher engagement with stakeholders, faster follow-up). Surface these patterns to sales managers so they can coach struggling reps and replicate best practices. Combine data with qualitative insights from calls and customer interactions.
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Kevin Mulrane, 7-time CRO, and Eddie Reynolds on how RevOps earns a seat at leadership by delivering insights, acting as a neutral third party, and aligning strategy with data.
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RevOps alignment with leadership
revenue operations strategy
Kevin Mulrane CRO
RevOps roadmap OKRs
sales insights vs reporting
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revenue operations best practices
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Read the full transcript · 90 KB · Kevin Mulrane
SPEAKER_00Welcome to RevOps Corner, where we talk about how B2B SaaS companies scale through revenue operations by interviewing amazing guests and sharing what we see in the trenches every day here at Union Square Consulting. So today, welcome to RevOps Live episode six. I'm here again
EDDIE REYNOLDSwith our good friend, Kevin Mulrane, seven times CRO and sales leader to talk about how to align RevOps with revenue leadership today. So we're going to jump into this and talk about some best practices from getting a seat at the table to leveraging data and insights to best ways that RevOps can be more strategic and work with revenue leadership to ultimately drive revenue. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us again today. Yeah, no, thanks for having me. I always enjoy
KEVIN MULRANEthese conversations. I think it's nice because it challenges my thoughts. I get to, I think, share my experiences, but at the same time, like I learned a ton from doing these as well. So appreciate you having me on, man.
OTHER GUESTYeah. As always, like you, you've actually been in a CRO and revenue leadership role so many times
EDDIE REYNOLDSand your experience is invaluable. So I'm excited to chop it up with you. And equally, Jerry, our head of delivery, the man behind the scenes that's actually doing all the work here at Union Square Consulting. Thank you for helping to manage this call. And also thanks in advance for any comments
SPEAKER_10or questions that you share that are relevant to this discussion because I know you're in the weeds every day on this stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm excited to be here. And thanks to everyone enjoying
SPEAKER_12and everyone that will join and everyone who listens to this after the fact. Cool. All right. So let's
EDDIE REYNOLDSlaunch into it. So I'm going to start off by just sharing some general thoughts for what, you know, Jerry, you and I are seeing every day with our customers in RevOps, as well as just what I'm seeing in the market when I talk to revenue operations professionals out there. And so the first thing I'm going to touch on is earning a seat at the table. Everyone in RevOps wants to get a seat at the table, but you don't deserve it, so to speak. You've got to earn it. So you really need to stop expecting that by having a revenue operations title that you're immediately going to get invited to the leadership table and be part of all of the strategic discussions. And, you know, be careful and not make it a negative and complain about there's not enough time to be strategic or simply provide reports to leadership or spending all of your time doing systems admin work without really understanding the why. I think what's really important for RevOps to get a seat at the table is to make time for that strategic work. Even if in the beginning, you've got to like do it on nights and weekends or put in the extra hours to find that time. And in doing that, spending time really understanding the go-to-market strategy, understanding the customer journey, the ideal customer journey that your team wants to deliver, and the key priorities for leadership, however you can do that. And then taking all of that information and leveraging the data that you have in Salesforce and other systems, start asking yourself questions about what's working and what's not, so you can bring these strategic insights back to leadership. And specifically you want to identify major obstacles to the go-to-market strategy, to the ideal customer journey that you want to deliver, and to hitting your targets and growing revenue, and then bring a specific plan to leadership to share, here's what's working well, here's what's not working well, here's what we can do about it, and here's what we in RevOps can do to help the revenue team execute on that go-to-market strategy. And I think that when this is done well, especially when it's done well consistently, this is where you're going to see leadership ask RevOps to come and sit down at that table because they're getting insights and valuable information, and they're going to want more of that as they start to think about their strategic plans for the following quarters. I think the next piece I want to cover is aligning with the CRO, and Kevin, I'm going to be really anxious to give your take on this, and so you may negate everything I'm about to say, and I'm going to share my thoughts because that's our framework here. But in my opinion, RevOps, in my opinion, should be the chief of staff to the CRO. What I mean by that is, is that the CRO is often the most expensive person in the organization. They're paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, and if you think about this in opportunity cost, simple math, if a CRO has a $10 million target, that means that every hour they spend working in a 40 hour week is worth $5,000. That's a tremendous amount of money to waste on activities that don't fit within the skill set of the CRO and the top priorities that they're focused on. So when I think about what a CRO is good at and what they get paid the big bucks to do, it's defining the go-to-market strategy. It's recruiting, hiring, and onboarding their revenue team. It's making decisions on investments in marketing, in people, in technology, and oftentimes CROs, especially in smaller organizations, are helping to actually close deals, helping to create content for marketing, and/or helping to serve major accounts to nurture them, retain them, and grow them. And so when you think about that, that is a big job by itself. And the place where CROs are not well positioned and not spending their time wisely is if they're knee-deep in systems admin. That's obvious. And even more than that, they shouldn't be the project manager for a junior systems admin and be responsible for spending all their time thinking about the strategy and plan for the work that needs to be done in RevOps. They shouldn't be the first person to take a first pass at analyzing the data to define the go-to-market strategy. They should really have somebody in RevOps that they can leverage to help do that. And they shouldn't be the ones that are always cracking the whip to try to get the systems and the people to provide the data to do that analysis. Additionally, they're not always the best people to be mapping out the specific step-by-step process that needs to be managed in those tools in order to execute the go-to-market strategy. And they shouldn't necessarily be the people that have to go and dig through the data to validate their investment thesis on where they're pouring money into marketing, people, process, and technology. Where RevOps can save them time by providing those insights and doing that planning and that work, CROs can be much more effective and hopefully hit that target revenue and not give up that opportunity cost that I just mentioned. The third thing I want to share here is on insights. I know we're going to dig into this pretty deeply, but there's a big difference between providing your CRO with a report and providing real insights. So anybody can run a report in Salesforce with very limited training. And the real value here is in look is in looking deeper through the reports to understand what's working, what's not, whether or not we're on track to hit our revenue target, and what the data tells us about what we can improve. And so to articulate this, I'm going to share a specific example. Let's use pipeline management metrics as an example here. And let's say that we give this year a report of our close rates and our sales cycles by rep. What is the CRO supposed to do with that report? It's pretty meaningless if you don't have the ability to dig deeper and understand what's going on. We want to look at, for example, what are our close rates and our sales cycles by stage, by rep? And then ask why is this happening? If we benchmark each rep against the rest of the team to understand where they're strongest and where they're weakest within their sales cycle, then we can start to look at deal by deal what's going on. Are they even following the sales process that we've outlined that we think is best to close deals? Are they working with the right stakeholders in the organization? Are they following up adequately on their pipeline? Are they following the greater nuances of our sales process? What's working and what's not at each stage? Where are deals falling off? Where are deals lagging? And oftentimes this is a real issue. Are reps dragging deals that have no chance of closing far too long and wasting time and energy on something that's never going to close? Bringing these insights, especially in a rep by rep rate basis to the CRO and or to sales managers can enable them to better leverage their time to know where to coach reps. And also, if you can do that calculation to say, well, if we improve this from where it's at now to what the average is across our team for each rep in the area where they're weakest, this is what our sales results will look like. You're going to get really tangible buy-in both from leadership and the reps themselves by being able to see, wow, if we focus our energies in these areas, this is what we could accomplish. So I'm going to get off my soapbox here for a moment and turn this over to you, Kevin, for you to share your general thoughts before we jump into the Q&A. Yeah, no, you teed up incredibly well there. I think the way I'm kind of looking at this,
KEVIN MULRANEit's like first like that earning a seat at the table is one piece I'll touch on and then kind of quickly go into collaborating with your revenue leadership and whether it's a CRO, BPS sales, CMO, et cetera. But for me, that does tie pretty closely to the analytics piece. And so I think if you're starting out and you're thinking to yourself, how can I get that seat at the table? I think the first thing to try and understand is what has been the experience, the journey to have some form of rev ops in the organization before you arose, right? Before you got there. I think it's really important to understand that because you can try to identify where the gaps are, where the blind spots, whether it is in the reporting, whether it is across alignment between departments, but try to understand if you're going to be strategic, like how, right? And I think those blind spots are a really,
KEVIN MULRANEreally great opportunity for you to prioritize where and how you want to be strategic. So I think
KEVIN MULRANEunderstanding what the attempts have been, what the effort has been, and then it'll help you identify where that opportunity is. So I think that's a really good exercise to go through. The other thing I've also seen too is that there's always, and again, depending on the stage of the company, there tends to be a lot of misalignment across multiple departments. Now, the very typical traditional one we hear all about
KEVIN MULRANEis the sales and market alignment, which is definitely a big one. The other though is how are we aligning our goals and our strategies with the product team, with finance, with customer success? If you think
KEVIN MULRANEabout your entire go-to-market function, how can we create better alignment across all these different departments, which is being extremely strategic in nature? And if my experience working in startups, the common goal of what we all want is revenue, right? But too often, you know, the product team is creating their strategy and their goals and everything they do on a quarter by quarter basis, kind of in a silo. And it's not tying back to the revenue. So I think RevOps is a really big opportunity to bring all the different go-to-market functions together and aligned across a common goal being revenue. And then that collaboration piece, like I think there's a couple of things that I'd have found really interesting in my experience. And I mentioned this recently, but I once was interviewing a RevOps candidate and they told me that their job was to make me look like a hero. I was like, no, that's my job. Like your job is to tell me the truth, right? I don't want reports that tell a certain narrative that make me look good and make marketing look bad, right? I've seen that so many times where sales has their report, marketing has their report, tells two different stories, and you don't know which one is right. Okay. I think RevOps has that opportunity to be that, you know, call that third party single source of truth about what's really going on in the business. How should we be slicing and dicing the data? How should we be analyzing and looking at it? So this way across sales, marketing, exec team, product, everybody, we're all kind of looking at a singular story and a singular narrative. What I have found too, as you kind of go and go through the ranks in an organization, right? You make fewer decisions that have a much larger impact, right? So when I was a sales manager, I had to make a lot of decisions day to day, right? And I was hoping that they all added up to making a really big impact. When I was a CRO, I was making fewer decisions that had a much larger and greater impact. When I did it very successfully, I had a fantastic RevOps team that was helping me and guiding those decisions. I had a single source of truth. I had good reporting. I had good data. And it wasn't necessarily telling me what I wanted to hear. It was telling me what was really going on in the business. So then when I was making decisions about where to focus, what to optimize, what the strategies were, who to hire, right? I was making better decisions that were leading to better impact because of my RevOps team. So I think that's a really big part of it. But understanding those revenue leaders you're working with, what are their skill sets? What are they good at? What are they not so good at, right? There's not this one size fits all model here. So I think kind of understanding the best ways of working with that leadership group. For me, I'm probably more of a revenue operationally driven sales leader than most. So I don't necessarily need you to like spoon feed me every little thing. I can look at something, I can pick it up and I can go with it. And that's my skill set. You can have another VP of sales is probably more of that rainmaker pipeline VP of sales that may need a little bit more explanation around the sales motion, the process, what the reporting means, what it's telling you, right? So there's not a one size fits all model. So I think really understanding who you're working with, what their strengths are, where their weaknesses or blind spots may be. But again, I think it's all about that. For me, like I said, it's all about having that single source of truth. When it comes to the reporting, what's really happening. I don't want you to just tell me what is going great in the business, because that doesn't help me grow or get better. I want to know those things so I can double down on it, find ways to replicate it. But I'm also, as Eddie mentioned, I'm looking for those areas that if I increase this conversion by even 2%, what spits out all the way at the end is X, right? And if I can really understand how to, you know, because then I can get into the coaching and the training and that's the stuff that I really love to do. So I think overall, that's my experience with working with RevOps and I think A, how to get that seat at the table, right? And then B, how to align really closely. But ultimately, as you know, Eddie, we've talked about too. There's a million and one priorities that are thrown at revenue operations teams. So I'm sure a topic we'll get into a bit is prioritization, time management, things of that nature.
OTHER GUESTYeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a perfect segue because that's where I like to start.
EDDIE REYNOLDSSo when I think about this, I always, I talk a lot about the revenue operations roadmap and not everyone's familiar with that. So to dumb it down, what is our actual plan and strategy for revenue operations? How do we prioritize the work that we're doing? I've got my opinion on it and I can share it, but I'd just be really curious, Kevin, I know that you've worked across many different organizations with many different levels of RevOps and sales ops. What have you seen working well and not working well in terms of like actually having a plan for the work that's being done and prioritizing what you're doing every day and week in RevOps? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a great question. I think the
SPEAKER_23way that it's worked well for me and I think part of it was like a bit of a process of just figuring
KEVIN MULRANEit out over time. But again, what I've always liked to start with is, you know, what are the three or four high level macro goals for the organization, right? And it can't be 13, right? Like it has to be very singular and very, very focused. And so I always like to start breaking out that high level. I think part of it is defining how does RevOps assist marketing to sales, to CS, to product, how do you bring it all together? So that was always the first kind of bid that I would work on. The next is going that layer deeper, which is specifically what is RevOps doing week by week, quarter by quarter to
KEVIN MULRANEdrive and be a, I always looked at it as more of a growth function as opposed to a cost center,
KEVIN MULRANEwhich I think is a really important piece. And so what are the key initiatives that are going to either give us better visibility, enable the sales team better, optimize our process, we're moving faster, align tech, whatever it may be. But there were very specific objectives that we were looking to achieve through RevOps that aligned with the key results we were looking for across the wider organization. My favorite thing that we then did, which helped the RevOps team a lot was we also talked about, what are we not going to do? What are the things that are most likely going to come up this quarter that we're simply going to say no to, right? Because we know that if we invest our time over here and we go deeper as opposed to getting spread thinner and trying to achieve more, we're going to see more impact on ROI. So that was the, I guess, the high level of the exercise and what we'd work through. But I'm curious, Eddie, as you're talking to revenue leaders, CEOs, founders,
KEVIN MULRANEis that kind of in line with what you're seeing? Is there different approaches?
OTHER GUESTYeah, I think it aligns really well. And I think the difference is that we're an outside consultant. So on the one hand, we don't have as much power to push our agenda within an organization. But on the
EDDIE REYNOLDSother hand, not only do we have the ability, but we almost have the responsibility to package everything
EDDIE REYNOLDSup and make it look nice and sexy. So for example, what you're talking about are OKRs. And so rather than just say, okay, we're going to do some strategic planning, we'll come to a customer and say, well, we're going to do objectives and key results if you're okay with that. And for anyone not familiar with that, this is a methodology for strategic planning that was popularized by John Doerr, one of the most famous venture capital investors ever, and the team at Google in the very early days, as well as people that came before them and after them. It's a very common methodology. And to really dumb it down, you set your goals by saying, I've got this sort of vague objective of like, we want to provide a better customer experience. And then you get very specific with key results, something that is measurable by saying, we want to reduce lag time in our app by 27%, whatever it is. This is an example from the book where they talk about, you know, Google. And then you say, okay, what are the initiatives that we're going to do in hopes that that produces the key result? And me personally, just from a philosophical standpoint, I try really hard to separate inputs from outputs because you can't ultimately control these things, especially in revenue. You can make all the calls you want, there is no guarantee you're going to hit your sales number. So if you focus on the inputs and saying, we're going to follow this process and do it right, then in theory, you should be able or not should, but in theory, you might be able to accomplish your key results. And even if you don't, then you can at least say at the end of the quarter, well, we did execute our initiatives and then either produce the result we wanted or did not. Now let's reflect on why, and then go into the next quarter and determine what initiatives should we try to execute in order to achieve the key results that we want for the following quarter. And then we will literally, and again, being consultants, I think without wasting time or money on behalf of our clients, we do have a little bit of an onus to package things up a little prettier than you might do if you're internal. And so we'll literally give them a roadmap of the chart and it outlines what is their objective and the key result they want to achieve. And then what is the initiative within RevOps that we're going to do in order to support that objective? So if they want to increase close rates or they want to onboard 10 reps and get them to quota, you know, it might be something as simple as we need to integrate outreach and Salesforce. But the reason we're doing that, the clarity we're looking for is because we want to achieve this particular key result for the revenue team. Yeah. And if I could, if I had to, as you're going through that, the highlight I would make as
KEVIN MULRANEthe most important factor of everything you just said is being able to explain the why, right? For a lot of the organizations I've worked in month over month, quarter over quarter, the numbers just continue to go up. And whether you made, missed, exceeded, the question that I, when I had very, very good leadership, the question I was always asked was, why did you get that outcome? And being able to explain that either helps you replicate future success, or then again, and when it's never always going to be that easy, markets change, quarter over quarter, a lot of different variables are going to change the way that you have to operate. So being able to understand the why helps you optimize for the future. And that's the biggest thing I think, whether you're, you're an investor or the CEO, you want to, that's the question that they always care about. That's the most meaningful outcome of a board meeting, is can you explain the why to the outcomes you had? That's when that's where I think RevOps has such a huge opportunity to partner with leadership and to get that seat at the table. If you can help explain and understand the why behind what happened, you're going to be head and shoulders above majority of your peers in the industry.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYeah, I couldn't agree with that more. And I think that that to me is what separates a true
EDDIE REYNOLDSRevOps leader from somebody that is more of a systems admin or systems architect. And having spent the last six and a half years interviewing literally hundreds of people, it really kind of blew me away how oftentimes I've interviewed extremely experienced, extremely expensive systems consultants, architects, et cetera. And when I asked them, why did you build the thing you just told me about? And they can't articulate how this drives revenue. And it's not even their fault. Sometimes these folks are working for Fortune 500 companies and they're so far removed from the end result. But I would also consider that a knock against the organization because why are you paying somebody two, three, $400,000 a year to architect a solution? You haven't taken five minutes to explain to them the result you're trying to achieve with that. Yeah, it's an interesting one. And I think
KEVIN MULRANEfor me, again, a lot of my background and experience is probably more in the earlier stage
KEVIN MULRANEstartup, whether it's seed, series A, series B, series C. And more often than not, I think that person, because you're juggling, you're moving fast, you're juggling a million and one different things. Leadership is juggling a million and one different things. It's usually less of that. The time is not taken to either explain or truly have the time to think, "Why are we doing this? And is this the best
KEVIN MULRANEthing for the business?" And more often than not, from what I've seen, it's people that are put in the position to make those decisions that don't have the experience or the knowledge to make that, right? Like we often see, the VP of sales, they get all of the RevOps stuff thrown on top of them because they're the VP of sales, but that's not their skillset. So they're doing their best to make
KEVIN MULRANEthose decisions, but more often than not, they're not the ones to, they're not in the best seat to make that decision. And that's where I think there's a huge opportunity for RevOps early, get them into
KEVIN MULRANEthe business early as opposed to later to really build things out the right way that scales as opposed to playing catch up, which I've had to do a few times.
SPEAKER_38Yeah. Well, Jerry, I wanted to give you an opportunity to share, well, you know, I felt
EDDIE REYNOLDSbad because we didn't talk about it before the call and I didn't want to just throw you into it and put you on the spot, but anything you want to share on what we just discussed or just in general on this topic before I dive into more questions with Kevin? Yeah, no, there's just two quick things. One of them is really quick, which is kind of just what
KEVIN MULRANEwe always say that, Kevin, I think is what you were saying at the beginning, which is the thing that I think of is RevOps is there to help save a company from itself. To your point, if it's the neutral third party, whether that's in-house or a consultant, obviously when you're an external partner, then you're really neutral in many regards, but even in-house, it's important to have that sort of neutrality and third party approach. And the other thing I was just going to mention with what we were just talking about in terms of the answering the why, why something worked, it's even important to mention that part of the sort of sub initiatives, if you will, or the more granular level things that'll be on a RevOps or an app will be to make sure you have the systems and tools in place to capture the information to be able to explain why. But, you know, if you don't have that, it's not so much making sure that folks on the team are doing the things that need to get done and to be able to support it, but you have to have the information to support it. And that's really foundational. I think from the beginning of implementing RevOps is try to think of everything we need today and tomorrow and next month and next year, as much as possible without burdening the team to make sure that we have a way to capture that information and analyze it if or when it becomes relevant. I like it a lot. It's so funny, man, because I can't stress the neutrality and the importance there so
KEVIN MULRANEmuch because, you know, even as a sales leader, I've seen it with sales reps, right? Like their pipeline, like they're so emotionally attached to their pipeline and their deals, right? Even as a sales leader, like you put so much hard work and hopefully you're incredibly passionate about what you're doing.
KEVIN MULRANEIf you have, if you come up with this idea and this strategy and you go execute and it fails, it's tough to like own that sometimes, right? But you need to. And having RevOps there to be that neutrality kind of third party to just get, just shoot you straight with, here's reality, here's what happened. Here's why it's happening. Here's how we learn and we look forward. It's incredibly, incredibly helpful, uh, you know, as that sales leader to have that person there for you. So, um, yeah, can, can stress that one enough. Yeah. You need someone with no, or someone or some
KEVIN MULRANEindividuals with no ego attached. Yeah. Because it's really, it's, it's kind of like a lightweight scientific method approach. You've got a hypothesis, you've got the inputs that you can control, you do it and you see what happens. Um, and, and success and failure for RevOps, I feel like is much different than any of the three core organizations within the business, because something that RevOps may implement may fail, but that isn't necessarily a failure for the business. Something that RevOps implements may be a success that may result. Well, I may have to think that one through before I finished that statement, but I'm trying to think of an example where a RevOps failure could be a success for the business. And I guess it would be what you're saying is something worked and we have no way to explain why that's a RevOps failure. That's still, you know, an increase in revenue for the business. Exactly. Yep. A hundred percent.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYeah. And I mean, I think that like Jerry, especially because as much as I alluded to talking about interviewing folks from larger organizations, which we've done in the past, we like you, Kevin focus on earlier stage companies. And so oftentimes we come into a situation where it's just an absolute mess or it's a train wreck, or sometimes we come in so early that they don't even have the train wreck yet. Cause they literally don't have any systems. Like they haven't even set up Salesforce yet. So it's like, we can wax philosophically about like doing this amazing data analysis and tell them what's working. But like, we've got a long road to go down before we're even there to set up the systems, to get the data in place, to train the team and then get them to adopt the process. That's going to generate the data. That's then going to tell us if that's going to work or not work. Um, and Jerry, this is a perfect opportunity for me to ask you how, how do you see us engaging with our clients in translating that RevOps roadmap into like the, the biweekly sprints that we do and figuring out what we're actually going to focus on today?
KEVIN MULRANEIt's, it's always, it can be a little bit of a battle because for a lot of smaller organizations, uh, executing in what we would consider highly inefficient ways, uh, is totally fine. Having no real tangible set of metrics other than let's make more money this quarter or this year than we did last quarter or last year is totally fine with them. Uh, and as, as far as they're concerned, that's going to be okay for some period of time. So the struggle for us is, is mostly in helping the smaller organizations know what they don't know and, and understand the, you know, the expensive meetings that they're holding, uh, and understand that the sooner we can put certain infrastructure in place, we can leverage it today. And it'll be even easier to leverage it tomorrow and next week and next month and next year, as their organization grows, as revenue grows, you know, a brand new organization may not even be thinking about customer success right now because you know, no contracts are expiring for another nine months. So we're not even going to worry about it for at least a quarter. Well, the problem is, as soon as you get into a habit of pushing those kinds of things off, you continue to do it. You continue to do it until it's an emergency situation and then everybody's scrambling and you're not doing things effectively in the right way. You're just trying to get a bandaid in place. Yeah. I completely identify with that,
EDDIE REYNOLDSespecially being, you know, the founder of a growing small company myself. Right. And, you know, we always talk about startups as like, you know, jumping off the cliff and building the airplane on the way down. And I think that there is this delicate balance between saying like, okay, we are not just going to slap everything together as you're describing forever. But at the same time, like, I majored in entrepreneurship in college. And I remember one of the first things I learned in my first classes was if you wait for all the stoplights on the road to be green, you will never like pull out. You know, at some point you've got to just go for it. And I think it's an incredibly difficult thing to sit down and say, what is the thing that we're going to tackle right now? There are a million things that we need to do to make this business better, but what's the one or two or three things that we need to focus on? And this brings us full circle back, Kevin, to what you were asking me or what we were talking about, which is I'm a big believer in OKRs for exactly that reason to get clear insight on where are we going to focus our energy? And to your point, where are we not going to focus our energy? Because there's a million things we could be doing. What are we going to do?
SPEAKER_22Yeah, it's a, it's such an interesting thing, too, because again, you know, if you, if you wait till
KEVIN MULRANEeverything's perfect, all the systems, all the reporting, the process, like you're not going to go anywhere.
KEVIN MULRANESo I think, you know, that exercise of trying to figure out what are the, the three or four most impactful initiatives that is going to set a really good foundation that allows you to build on top of is a really, really important exercise. All right. Again, like I said, I'm a huge fan of understanding what are we just not going to do? What are we not going to focus on? Because at least you're then, you know, it doesn't, because it's inevitably it's going to happen. And at least if you know these things, you're not going to, you know, when you, when you hear it or feel it, you're not going to have this like reaction to it. You're going to be able to stay focused and down the lane on the things that are most important. I'm a big OKR fan as well. I've seen companies try and implement them with
KEVIN MULRANEsuccess also with, with failure. But I think the other piece of it, and, you know, Jerry, you kind of alluded to this a bit before, you know, I think RevOps needs to be that more proactive thinking about what are we going to need to, what's going to have to be in place in six months and then 12 months, right? Like very more proactive, futuristic thinking. And particularly with the OKRs, I can't tell you how many companies I know are doing Q4 OKRs right now. And it's the 11th of
KEVIN MULRANEOctober, right? And it's like there, and especially on the revenue thing, like the one thing that we all know is that there is time that it takes to create pipeline to close deals, there's sales cycles,
KEVIN MULRANEthere's customer journeys. I think when RevOps can really understand that and start to shift the organization to think more in a proactive sense, as opposed to reactive and in the moment, that's where some of that strategy comes into place as well. Yeah. I couldn't agree with that more. And like,
EDDIE REYNOLDSthere's a particular customer that I'm thinking of that comes to mind. And it's just interesting,
EDDIE REYNOLDSbecause I feel like we've been having these conversations back and forth with them. And on the one hand, they're saying, and they're smart guys. And on the one hand, they're saying, look, we just need to move fast and like acquire customers and close them. And on the other hand, they're like, but we realize that like, as we expand from zero reps to three reps to 10 reps in a very short period of time, that's going to break down really fast. And so we're just trying to like constantly balance those two things. Yeah. Yeah. And again, this is why,
KEVIN MULRANEthis is why it's so fun, right? Like I think it's, it's so much fun being in this world because there's not a one size fits all model. And if that was the case, it'd be easy, right? Every company, every market, every scenario, every situation has different variables that are going to kind of dictate
KEVIN MULRANEwhat the strategy is, how you're going to win it, how you're going to lose. But again, I think where, where RevOps plays such an exciting role in all of that is that strategic creative place, right? To help with that strategy, define it. But then more importantly, it goes back to the why. And if you can forecast, understand the why behind your outcomes, you'll grow, you'll scale, you'll learn a lot quicker. So I don't know. I think it's an exciting,
KEVIN MULRANEagain, depending on the company you're in and the folks you have around you, it can be a really, really exciting opportunity to figure things out.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYeah, absolutely. And so let's talk about figuring things out, right? So I think we touched on the strategy and the planning and let's move into insights. So how, let me ask this and think if I can ask it in a way that we can create a nice juicy clip. I'm always like, how do I get my question really tight so we can cut this up? As a CRO and sales leader, how do you think about insights and what RevOps should be doing versus what you should be doing to get those insights?
KEVIN MULRANEIt's a good question. It's a really good question. I think, you know, I think when it comes to the insights, the, where I see a lot of companies fall into a trap is they have like the, their go to market meetings and they review reports and data. But what they do is they just talk about what the numbers are, right? And there's not this time to, instead of explaining, hey, here's the numbers, you know, we generate this many leads and they converted this much pipeline. We converted this much pipeline to customers. We've got these renewals coming up and they're going to convert it to X person. Instead of talking about what the numbers are, like really getting into the behaviors of what do they actually meet? And that's insights. And I think that's the piece that a lot of companies are struggling and missing. It's like, they have the numbers and they talk about what the numbers are, but they aren't able to kind of double click into those numbers and try and understand what do they really meet? So I think for me, where I've worked well with RevOps is proactive, again, proactively sending me the data so I can take a look at it on my own time, right? Where it's not with a huge group, but I can just really understand here's what the numbers are. And then what I'll start doing is
KEVIN MULRANEstart creating questions. And again, the questions typically are, why is this number the way it is? Why do we get this outcome? If we wanted to, how could we get a better outcome? This is really
KEVIN MULRANEgood. What happened to make this number really, really good? So I'll start to create a whole number of questions that we're going to want to kind of double click into certain conversions and really kind of review more line by line opportunities, deals, right? And that's where I think you start to get more of that qualitative data that will start to actually create insights, but more importantly, gives you the areas you have to double click and investigate further that might move more into, let's go talk with the reps. Let's go talk to customers, right? Let's talk to the teams, start to get that balance of qual and quant data that's going to help you with real insights. And then Eddie, as you put it, then it's like, okay, well, here's my hypothesis, right? Here's what I think if we do this, I think we're going to yield a better outcome. And I think it could be this outcome, right? So start to forecast like what your initiative should be because of those insights. These were the outcomes we think we expect if we do X, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. Jerry, anything you want to add to that? Because I know
EDDIE REYNOLDSthis is near and dear to your heart. I don't have anything for that particularly. I've got some
KEVIN MULRANEother questions that aren't insight specific, but I'll wait for those. I don't want to derail us. No, you're not derailing us at all, but I'll ask one more question on insights. And I'll comment on
EDDIE REYNOLDSwhat you said, Kevin, which is, you know, like if I look at myself, like you are a CRO that really understands systems and data. Obviously, so am I, right? Not only am I extremely comfortable in Salesforce, but I started my career in finance where I was doing like really deep financial analysis in addition to like being a frontline salesperson. First as a banker, then investment banker, then private equity. And so I'm really, really comfortable looking at data, especially sales data. But when I think about like my own organization, I've got to ask if that's where I want to spend my time. Because there are things that only a CRO can do. There are things that the CRO is ultimately responsible for, and there's only so much time in the day. And I think probably the most important thing that a CRO can do is to build and manage a great team. And that alone is really, really difficult and time consuming. So if you're detracting from that to go and do a bunch of analysis in the systems that somebody else could at least give you a head start on, to me, that doesn't seem like a best practice.
SPEAKER_23Yeah. I couldn't agree with that more, right? And I think that it kind of speaks to,
KEVIN MULRANEyou know, like know your revenue leaders and know what they're good at and what they're bad at and and know ultimately what are their priorities, right? Like if my priorities that are given to me and a lot I'm aligned on with the CEO is build a world-class team, onboard, train, coach, right? Understand voice of the customer, right? There's going to be some really large key areas of focus that is not going to be build the process, build the reporting, update the reporting, know the note. Like you're right. Like that is a, there's a lot of heavy lifting that goes into that. So I think if you are able to surface up, right? The data, the insights, even the things like,
KEVIN MULRANEHey, like, I think here's an area for you to focus on. I don't have all the answers,
KEVIN MULRANEright? But like, it just got to be directional point me in the areas that you think my time should be focused on in terms of a little bit more, you know, kind of like a deeper dive to figure it out. I think that's a really, really big one. The other thing I'll say too, and I think a lot of companies fall into this trap, which is we want lots of data and lots of insights. So they just try to capture everything. And then immediately it's this like paralysis by analysis with the overwhelming amounts of data. And as I start to work with companies and we're trying to build out, what are the key metrics we should be reporting on? What are going to be the key insights for us? Start super, super simple, right? Less is more at this point. And as you go, and as you're looking at the numbers and you're trying to gather the insights, that's going to tell you what else you need to build on top of it, right? So keep it really, really simple at first. You can build on top of it, but I agree. I think being able to surface up areas to kind of focus in on more conversions to look into, right? I think that's a huge area that a RevOps person can be incredibly
KEVIN MULRANEcomplimentary and helpful for that CRO or sales leader. Yeah. And to that too, real quick,
KEVIN MULRANEstarting simple and paralysis by analysis is not just paralysis for RevOps, but it's also paralysis for sales marketing and CS because as soon as you, not every point of data can be sourced from an outside resource, whether it's a web form or it's a database, some of this is coming from your team. And when you start asking your reps to add 55 points of data, just to open an opportunity in the pipeline, they're going to just put in all your NAs and your dashes and all of that is not valuable at all. Whereas if you just ask the two or three key things, you're more likely to get accurate information that you can actually rely on a hundred percent. Yeah. And I love like,
EDDIE REYNOLDSJerry, your use of the word hypothesis and thinking about the scientific approach. But on the other hand, we also have to recognize that this is far, far from an exact science, right? I mean, you're, you know, science 101, like you have a hypothesis and you test it with a control group, et cetera. You have to have one and only one variable that you're working with in order to have a reliable measurement. And you never have that in revenue, right? You have a hundred variables that are moving at the same time. And so we have the data in our systems and the data out in the market, but then you also have like the nuance of what the salesperson is seeing every day, or even what the marketer is seeing every day. I mean, I look at this in our own marketing metrics and it's like, I can see like how many likes, you know, were on the post or how many people came to the event, but only I can like leverage my own gut instinct to understand, like, why is that happening? Why did that piece of content resonate? Why is this channel working or not working? What can we do better? The data can only tell you so much. That's such an interesting one, right? Because I think,
KEVIN MULRANEas, as I think about it, right, it's like, I want, I want data to help validate my decisions,
KEVIN MULRANEbut there's other times where I'm like, you just got to trust your gut and use your intuition
KEVIN MULRANEexperience that, that, that got you there to continue to, you know, just believe in it and go with it. Um, so I, I think though, that's where again, depending on a lot of different variables, like your team, your skill sets, the data you do have available to you, you have, you just have to
KEVIN MULRANEfind a strike. What's the right balance with all of those considerations, right? And to your point, Eddie, right, I think when you're, when you're super early days, I, you know, I put such an emphasis
KEVIN MULRANEon building the team. And it's like, I know, depending on where the product is, depending on where our process is, where our playbooks are, if I hire world-class salespeople, we'll get world-class results regardless. But I can have the best systems in place, the best process, the best data. And if I have average salespeople, I'm still going to get average results, right? And so that's why I've always been, for me, if I can really focus to your point earlier, I'm, I'm building the team, but I can still have like a world-class rev ops person, right? Be that person who can funnel up data and reporting and insights to me and help align all the go-to-market teams, like all of that work. That's when you get
KEVIN MULRANElike, then you're cooking with fire as opposed to like something always kind of being, being a lag.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYeah. I mean, increasingly, I think that like, you want to combine the quantitative with the qualitative data. And since you're talking about recruiting, I've been, you know, religiously devouring books on recruiting lately. And one of the most famous ones talks about having a job scorecard where you literally have a score for each candidate at each, each interview, right? But what they also say is like, go ahead and you know, score them up on, based on how they interview in comparison to the goals of the job. Got like an actual Excel, we have an actual Excel sheet, but then once you do that score, you still have to trust your gut, right? You still have to say, okay, like the person has like the perfect resume and they have this experience and they answered this question really well. But like, I can just tell that like, you're a human being, like 70% of communication or something like that is non-verbal. You see what's going on. And I would say the same thing like applied to sales. I remember this was a big aha moment for me when I worked at Salesforce. And I was new to B2B SaaS and sort of the structured approach with which we, we sell in this industry. And I was trying to get the mutual plan down. I was trying to get like some of these mechanics down. And one of my colleagues who was absolutely crushing it was like, look, man, this mutual plan is great. You know, you send an email and you say, okay, like we've agreed that these are our next steps. But at the end of the day, like I'm confirming that mutual plan in every single step of the sales process, but I'm also looking for what they're saying and not saying and doing and not doing. It's very simple. If somebody is responding to your email in five minutes and they say yes to every time you ask for a meeting and they show up on time and they're prepared, you probably have a deal. And if it takes you five emails to get a hold of somebody, they're not just busy. This is not a priority for them. And you can, you know, have the most tight sales process in the world, but a world-class salesperson is going to recognize that really quickly. And they're going to do what they need to do to get that person to commit or not commit. And they're going to move on. And that is nuance and that is art and it is not science. Yeah. And that's where the two blend, right? And I think as, as rev ops, if you're able to look at
SPEAKER_52performance across the entire team, right, you're, you can, again, I think trying to hire a very,
KEVIN MULRANEa sales team with very different skill sets is always a great thing, but they're in, in essence,
KEVIN MULRANEthey're all going to perform a little bit differently. And if you can see that one sales rep has higher closing percentage or higher ACV or shorter sales cycles, if you're measuring all of that, rev ops can kind of start to surface up how, where the performance differs across rep to rep.
KEVIN MULRANEAnd then again, as the CRO, you can then go and say, okay, let's dig in. Let's, let's listen to their calls. Let's join more calls. Let's understand what are they doing to get that result to then try and
KEVIN MULRANEtrain and enable the rest of the team to achieve that as well.
EDDIE REYNOLDSAnd you could tie these things together. So like using my example, what you would see, or what I saw in the data, when I worked at sales sources that are best performing reps, obviously would have, I mean, not just at sales force, this is every organization, they would have shorter sales cycles, right? They're not chasing these deals. And so when you look at a rep and you see that their sales cycle is double what everybody else is, and they're dragging these deals on and they're in like XYZ stage for, you know, double what your entire sales cycle should be. Then you look at that and you ask what's going on and you see in the data that they're not like interacting with folks high in the organization. There, there's quantitative data that you can see, but then the qualitative pieces, you go and you talk to them and you sit on a call with them or what have you, and you understand what's going on in the nuance. And now you can combine these two. And the data is telling you that this person takes too long in their sales cycle and they're not talking to the right people. And you know, the nuance is that you get on a call with them and you see that they're afraid to like ask for a meeting with executives and they're not comfortable in those situations. And now you really have something to work with. I want to be careful here before we run on too long on this particular topic and give our audience an opportunity to ask any questions. Jerry,
SPEAKER_00do we have anybody that wants to ask a question? Yeah, thanks Eddie. I'm just going to interrupt you
KEVIN MULRANEjust in case. Go ahead Alex, you can come in. Thank you. Thank you very much. So I heard a lot of startup
OTHER GUESTenvironment, also not such startup environment. And what would be your thoughts around achieving a balance between being proactive and thinking strategically and analyzing and getting those insights and the wise and being reactive and being too tactical, spending too much time on tactical things, fixing issues or fighting fires because that doesn't necessarily allow too much head space to go and look at the broader picture. And let's say a startup with a team of one rib ups, where would that balance kind of come in? Where does that line get drawn? That's such a big question. Kevin, do you want to take the first crack at that?
SPEAKER_22Yeah. I mean, I think I'll give, uh, I think I'll speak to what I've done in the past, um, to
KEVIN MULRANEtry and get to a place where we're less reactive and less in the day-to-day tactical and a bit and how we plan to get a bit more strategic. Um, and what I'll, what I'll just kind of start with is like, it definitely does not happen overnight. Right. Um, but what I've been able to do is I would sit with my rev ops lead or the team and basically say, okay, like, where do we want to get to? What do we want rev ops to look like? Like, what do we want the team to be focused on, excelling at? Like, if we could paint the most perfect picture and describe that, let's go. And like, it was either like on a whiteboard or post-its, but somehow it was just thoughts. It was ideas. But we tried to paint this perfect picture. All right. And then what we would do is we would explain, well, here we are today. What does today look like? Right. And it was a really good exercise because then we could clearly see here we are, where we are today. And here's where we want to get to. And now it's, let's create the path and the plan to get there. And you may say we want to get there in 12 months or 18 months or 24 months. But having that timeline, you can then break it out and say, okay, let's go down like year by year, quarter by quarter, and let's figure out what's the plan for us to get there. And maybe part of that plan is like, all right, we just got to go heads down, knock out, clean this stuff up, get super tactical, set a good baseline for what our reporting is and the data and the process. And then that kind of transitions over time where you can start thinking a bit more about that strategic side, whether it may be more on like territory management or go to market strategy, customer journey, whatever it may be. So I think that's been an exercise that I've done in
KEVIN MULRANEthe past. That's been really helpful. I think kind of to your point, Eddie, like having that broken down into more like quarterly OKRs is a really great initiative. And then you can review that weekly,
KEVIN MULRANEmonthly, quarterly to see, A, things are going to change. The first plan you put out there probably isn't going to play out that way. So you're going to have to constantly optimize, but at least you
KEVIN MULRANEhave a path and a plan on how you want to get there. Yeah, Kevin, I agree with that. But I would
OTHER GUESTsay that the big variable here is leadership, right? And so you're speaking from your perspective
EDDIE REYNOLDSand the way that you lead. And I think that what we see in the market, as well as with our clients, is there's a broad spectrum of how receptive leadership is going to be to that and how much they're willing to sort of align with that. And so we'll see leaders that are just a hundred percent all in, like let's map out the strategy. Let's spend as much time as possible. Let's physically write it in a document. We had one customer where we'd write like a 20 page document and send it over to them. And then like the next day, there's a hundred comments on that document with feedback. And it's like, wow, like this is almost too much, but this is great. And then we see the exact flip side where, you know, there are revenue leaders that are just like, I just need you to update this field in Salesforce and, and build this report and integrate outreach. And like, we don't even have time to discuss this with you, just get it done. And so I think that like, wherever you're at in that spectrum at, at a certain extreme level, like I think, so individuals in rev ops are best to just say, look like this isn't the right company for me. I'm going to leave. But before you go to that extreme, I think that you want to try to like rack up some small wins and grab some low hanging fruit. So one of the ways I think about this and Jerry, I'd be really curious if you think about it the same way is breaking down the activities into recurring activities and one-time activities. So if you think about your role in rev ops, there hopefully are certain things that you're doing again and again and then there's just the other stuff that's just like a flood of random requests or things that you think you should be doing. Right. And so oftentimes what rev ops is struggling with is that they don't have very many recurring activities and or those recurring activities are just not strategic. And then what they do with the remainder of their time is they try to field these requests that are so high in volume that no matter how many hours they work in a week, they can't possibly get them all done. And so I think that like in an ideal world, you'd say, hold on a second, like we need to map out a revenue operations roadmap. We need to do sprint planning. We need to have a proper intake system so that people aren't pinging us all day, every day on email, phone, Slack, etc. It's got to go into this inbox and then we'll review it on Monday. But if that's not possible, you think about like, what is like one small step you can take towards that? And so I think like, if you can even take an hour to say, okay, like, I'm going to just try to understand like, what is our go to market strategy? What, like, what is something that's holding us back from that? What are some of the priorities of leadership? And then maybe even just hone in on something really small and granular and say, well, if I do this one thing, it's going to show value to leadership and they're going to be able to see that we're starting to move the needle towards having an efficient revenue engine instead of just having RevOps be an IT help desk. And I think as you start to rack up those small wins, you can start to ask for more in return and or just assume it, right? So I don't, I think like in an extreme example, if you can't get leadership to sit down and have that discussion with you, you could put together a document or a PowerPoint with your own RevOps roadmap or your own sprint plan and just present it to them and just say, hey, we haven't had time to discuss this. But based on what I'm seeing every single day, I think this is what we need to achieve this quarter. I think this is what we need to do over the next two weeks. I've ranked this in order of priority. Would you like to provide me feedback on what you think is the highest priority? And the more you button that up into a nice, neat little pretty document, the more a busy leader can just look at it and go, wait, no, like item number three here is super important. Let's do that first. And then you say, okay, can I have your permission to focus on this so that I can get this done over the next two weeks over and above all the requests that I'm getting flooded with every day? - Jerry, what do you think about that? Am I off base? - No, it's pretty aligned. Yeah,
SPEAKER_12I was just going to say, and I sort of think of it as a pyramid or a hierarchy of the more strategic
KEVIN MULRANEthings that you're doing are probably less frequent, but require a higher level of effort as a RevOps leader. The more tactical things you're doing, you're probably spending a lot less time on each one thing. You're hopefully either doing it yourself or working with systems consultants to make changes, but those are more frequent. So it's, yeah, it's stacked and it's a regular pyramid or an inverted pyramid if you're looking at amount of time or level of effort needed for those different areas. But I would agree, if we don't have buy-in from leadership, the whole thing becomes really impossible to manage that way. But the more that we can do as RevOps members to make it easy for leaders to digest it and review it and think about it asynchronously from time spent in meetings with you, the more likely you're going to appeal to them and the more likely you're going to get time with them
SPEAKER_62that's meaningful. - I also think it's okay to take a swing and miss, right? So like, I don't think many
EDDIE REYNOLDSleaders are going to be upset with you if you say, hey, you know, I put together this presentation, I put together this document and you show it to them and they're like, this is all wrong. I mean, they might say that, but to then go and say, well, I'm so upset that you spent time trying to think through this and try to like be strategic and thoughtful about the work that you're doing and the value it adds to the organization. I'm super upset that you spent time on this. I mean, first of all, you're probably working for the wrong person if they say that. And I think it's very rare that somebody's going to say that. What's more likely is they're just super busy and they're like, oh God, okay. I don't really have a lot of time to think about this, but like now that I have this one single one page document right in front of me, like, yeah, you're right. Like item number three is super important. Like, yeah, yeah. Let's try to get that done this month. Like, tell me what you need. I think if a leader doesn't do that, I don't know. I want to be careful here because I don't want to encourage people to just quit their jobs, but like at a certain point, like you got to be working for the right team, right? - Yeah. Hey, you know what? And Eddie, as you were kind of
KEVIN MULRANEresponding there, made me think of a very similar situation, different, but similar in the sense that
KEVIN MULRANEI've mentored a lot of salespeople before. And a common thing I hear is my sales manager enforces me to go through my process a certain way, whether it's their prospecting, their sales motion, but I have to do it this way. And I think there's a better way to, I think there's a better way of doing it. Like, how do I have that conversation? And typically what I would suggest is like, again, you have a hypothesis. Here's what I want to try and do. I want to test this out. I want to see if it'll get a better result. And so I think it's, it's very similar in that rev ops scenario where you can say, Hey, listen, I'm bogged down by all these very tactical one-off things. As you guys have mentioned, I'd like to try and put some time, like 20% of my time, a little side passion project, something on the side. I want to work on this. That's going to allow me to be more strategic. I think it's gonna have a better impact on the business. Do you mind if I put some time into that and we can review how it goes and the impact? So I think finding baby steps to find initiatives where you can be more strategic to test that out, find those little wins, as you mentioned, will go a long way to start to shift perception. But it is, it's tricky, especially if you don't have the right type of leadership in place. But anytime one of my, like a rep of mine or anybody on my team, or even somebody outside might like, if they were like, they took the initiative to say, Hey, I think I have an idea. Like I'd love to bounce it off you. I think we can get better results from it. I just, I always loved and appreciated the initiative. So you can't, unless you had the wrong leader, like you can't miss with that. Right. Yeah. And I mean, I have personal experience
EDDIE REYNOLDSwith this in my last role. I don't want to like throw this guy into the bus because he's a good guy, but like I, I ran rev ops for an extremely well-funded startup and I reported to the president of the organization and like, to his credit, like they're just trying to get things going. And he came from investment banking, you know, it was like, he was not running a tech company was new to him. And one of the challenges I had was I had to provide these like reporting and insights at the end of every single day. And it would take me, the first time I did it, it took me four hours and I got it down to, you know, a shorter period of time, but I had to be in the office at 7:00 AM. And then I couldn't even start running this report until like five 36 o'clock when we like closed our day. So I'm exhausted. It's like 12 hours as I put together the report and I sent it over to him. And then he reads it on the train, on his train ride home. And, um, we were just so busy. I never once had a single, like sit down with my boss the whole time that I worked there. And so, you know, I, I complained to him about that. And his response to me were two things. One, he's like, I'm spending an hour a day looking at this data. Why don't you take the extra step to drill into the data and tell me like what it means? Because I'm spending all of my time doing that. And I thought like, well, the reason I'm not doing that is because I'm already working two hours a day, because I have to be in the office at 7:00 AM and I can't start this thing until 5:30. But like, you raise a good point. How can I sit here and complain that you're not giving me the opportunity to be more strategic when I'm not taking the extra step to do that myself? And the second thing he said was, he's like, rather than ask me to sit down and have like a meeting about like, what is our go-to-market strategy and what are our top priorities? Why don't you map out what you understand and come to me with some kind of a presentation and you might be off the mark, but at least we've got something to work with. Rather than just asking me for a one hour meeting where I'm so busy, I'm just killing myself trying to get this company off the ground. And you're just asking me for a meeting for the sake of like, asking a bunch of questions. And I don't completely agree with him. Like, I don't think that was the best way to run, to manage a rev ops leader or to run an organization, but like, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. And I really took his feedback to heart. And we see this every day with our clients that are across the spectrum of being receptive or not receptive to more strategic work. And we've just got to like, we've got to operate where we're at. So Alex, that was an extremely long answer to your question, but did, did it answer your question? It did. Yes. Right on point. And then some more. Thank you.
SPEAKER_64Awesome. Awesome. Well, feel free to let us know if you have any other questions. Otherwise,
EDDIE REYNOLDSwe can keep going with this.
SPEAKER_24Um, Jerry, anything you want to add to that? Not necessarily to that, although I do have, maybe it is related. I had a question, which was, uh,
KEVIN MULRANEmore for you, Kevin is when we think about approaching executive leadership within an organization, are a, do you ever consider meetings with executives as being sort of a committee versus just individual? Uh, and if so, what are some of the factors you, you, or we, or whomever should take into consideration and determining that? And by committee, I mean, you know, committee would most likely be sales, marketing, and CS leaders that are kind of rallying together around certain initiatives versus it just being a single individual, you know, the rep-offs leader that's, that's bringing that to executive leadership.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, that's a really good question. I think there'd be a few considerations. You know, I think one is, I've always looked at it as if you can add value to the meeting,
KEVIN MULRANEor if you have, are going to be responsible for an action item or a takeaway from that meeting,
KEVIN MULRANElike you should be in that meeting. I think also, like I said, um, particularly with rep-offs,
KEVIN MULRANEI think that you're going to have various levels of understanding, right? Of the value of the metrics.
KEVIN MULRANELike again, understand what the strengths and weaknesses are of that executive team. It's tricky. Like it's really, really tricky to do. Um, but I, I do think like, again,
KEVIN MULRANEif you're having a, you know, kind of go to market pipeline meeting, um, you know, you're going to be reviewing top funnel metrics and how that's converting into the pipeline and how the existing pipeline is
KEVIN MULRANEconverting, like sales and marketing should be in that meeting. Right. Um, I've also, I've also had those meetings where the CFO was in those meetings because he was, um, I'd say very kind of a very client facing CFO
KEVIN MULRANEin a surprising way. Right. Um, so again, I think there's not a one size fits all model there, but I think if somebody is, you know, is going to add value, ask right questions, have some sort of action from that meeting, they should be in there. Um, I think too, like, you know, but it's, it's a balance.
KEVIN MULRANECause actually I'm going through this right now with, uh, with, uh, with one of my clients where it's like, we want to have this go to market meeting and, you know, started off with sales and marketing and then added CS and then now product and engineering want to join in. And now it's turning into, well, now there's the go to market and then there's the product feedback loop. Right. So you can easily
KEVIN MULRANEfall into the, you know, you, you get either way too spread, like spread way too thin across meeting and then nothing's meaningful anymore. So I think it's just like really understand like what's the core objective, what are the takeaways from that meeting and just figuring out who really needs to be in there as opposed to who doesn't. But not sure if that's a great
SPEAKER_17answer to your question, but it's just, it's, it's hard to figure out in a lot of organizations.
KEVIN MULRANEYeah. I know. I think the takeaway from that is it's the same as goes for any meeting. It doesn't really matter who you're meeting with or when or why it's, is there any point in these individuals joining or not? Are they adding value or are they taking something away from it? Yeah. We actually had a,
KEVIN MULRANEum, it was really cool. And in a previous company of mine, and this was through the pandemic. So I think a lot of companies fell into this, like overwhelming number of meetings because everyone was remote. It was just kind of a symptom of not being together so often. Um, and we just felt we're having so many meetings and then we created this like code of conduct for meetings. And you actually, like when you invited somebody to the meeting, like you had to think, like you had to say, like, here's the agenda, right? We're gonna talk about this. The purpose of the meeting is this. What we want to get out of it is that. And then as you invited people, you had to be like,
KEVIN MULRANEare they really going to contribute? Like, are they really going to have, be able to add value? And then as you got invited, you had to kind of go through the same thing. Like, what am I going
KEVIN MULRANEto contribute? That's going to add value to this? Or am I just gonna be a fly on the wall and listen in? So I think that in a similar fashion, right? Kind of some sort of like framework for meetings actually does go a long way. Cause I'm sure we've all seen those like meeting cost calculators, everyone who was in it, throw their salary in, hit the start of the timer. And you're like, it's the expensive meeting, right? So it's an interesting one. Yeah. And I hate thinking about employees cost in terms of salary because it's not salary. It's
EDDIE REYNOLDSopportunity cost. We don't hire people in hopes that we break even on them. We hire a salesperson and pay them 200 grand a year hoping they bring in a million dollars of revenue. So every meeting is a lot more expensive than their comp. And then even more than that, it's the incremental, right? We've all got to check email. We've all got to like boot up our computer in the morning. There's all these activities that you can't get around. And so then when you take that extra hour out of the day, oftentimes that hour, especially when you think about it, an hour of time that you have like the mental energy to, to work hard, that hour usually is the thing that's most important that doesn't get done. Because we can all go and say, all right, well, I'm going to put in a 14 hour a day, but like, yeah, I had all these meetings and now I'm going to work at 8:00 PM. How productive are we?
SPEAKER_70Terrible. So when you think about that cost and so, you know, it's your point, like we
EDDIE REYNOLDShaven't implemented this internally, but I've been thinking about it, Jerry, we should talk about this offline. But like, I've read that, you know, at Amazon, at least the upper echelons, Bezos makes his employees write out like a multi-page memo talking about the meeting, what they want to accomplish, what people need to know. And then they know that people will not actually read that memo if they just email it over. So they'll kick off the meeting. They'll give everybody 30 minutes to read the document. And so they'll sit in the meeting, just silently reading that document. And then they'll start the meeting after everybody has like all of this background and it forces the person organizing the meeting to be really, really thoughtful about what that meeting is for. Or if they even need to have the meeting. Yeah. Should have been an email.
SPEAKER_12Yeah. The problem I have with emails is people don't read them.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYou know, it's hard to send an email that's longer than a few sentences and actually get it read.
SPEAKER_17You know what, though? Again, I don't want to get too far off the main topics here. One of the things that I used to do was when I, instead of sent, I mean, it would be in an email format, but I would
KEVIN MULRANEsend a video. I'd use a loom, a vidyard. And even if it was just like a video with a quick, like,
KEVIN MULRANE"Hey, sales rep, congrats on that deal. Really impressive stuff. Like, keep it up." Something really short and terse like that, just kind of, you know, recognition type things. But it was just a
KEVIN MULRANEdifferent format. And I found that the engagement was so much higher with that than people actually reading emails. I love that. And I actually think this does segue into something that's really relevant
EDDIE REYNOLDSbecause I think a lot of people are looking at it. And I think a lot of people are looking at it. So I think a lot of people are looking at it. I think a lot of people are looking at it. And I think a lot of people are looking at it. I think a lot of people are looking at it. I think a lot of people are looking at it. And I think a lot of people are looking at it. I think a lot of people are looking at it. And I think a lot of people are looking at it. It's an incredibly inefficient use of time. And so if you can use the process and the tools like Salesforce to ask those questions that you're going to ask, like, "What are your top deals? Who are you working with over there? What stage are you in? Have you done this? Have you done that?" If you're going to ask those questions, you can ask them right in Salesforce. You can then pull up a report and you can see exactly that information so that you can then go into that meeting and drill and say, "Hey, Bob, I was looking through your pipeline and I saw you've got 10 deals. A lot of them look great. I've got some questions on these two deals." Whether that's a team meeting or a one-on-one or at Salesforce, a lot of this would happen over Chatter, now Slack, where they're just like, "Hey, what's going on with this deal? You said it's closing like next week, but I see you haven't had a meeting in like three weeks and your next steps are out of date." It's like, "You know the answer to that question. No, sorry. I need to update my opportunity." Isn't it better to have
EDDIE REYNOLDSthat conversation over Slack than taking up everybody's time in a meeting? Yeah. You know what's so funny? I've had the conversation around what is the, again, purpose,
KEVIN MULRANEright? What's the purpose of a sales meeting? What is the purpose of a sales meeting, Kevin? So the way I've looked at it is that it's an opportunity to get everybody aligned on key goals and objectives for that week, that month. I also think it's an opportunity to share, collaborate, and learn. One of the things I used to do was I first called it, I just called how I did my deal training and I would get a salesperson who closed a really good deal recently and we would break down the sales process and I would basically interview them. "So how did you find this deal? What was it about your prospecting? What was about this person? What stood out to you to say this is a good prospect? What were the discovery questions that you asked? How did you uncover, and this is more around like the art side of it, right? But how did you uncover the major needs and how did you know this is a big priority for the business? What about the demo really stood out? Blah, blah, blah. I'd kind of go through our sales process, ask questions, but that was an opportunity for everybody to understand and learn. However, I would leverage RevOps in this because I could then see certain stats and information on the deal. I could see the sales cycle. I could see where it came from. I could see how well it converted. I could see the ICP. Or I could find out, "Yeah, we closed it, but this part of the deal took way too long. Let's uncover that," right? So again, kind of the data to point me in the areas of coaching. I think it's a big part to inspire and bring people together and just get them motivated and excited, right? But I do
KEVIN MULRANEthink it's less around, for me at least, right? Less around that pipeline management, feedback loops.
KEVIN MULRANEWhat does product need to hear? And I'd have guest speakers. I'd bring marketing in one week, product in the next week, CEO the other week. I'd bring external guests from folks that I know in my network that I think, "Maybe this is an outbound specialist and my team needs to hear some really
KEVIN MULRANEcool things." But for me, it was more around alignment on goals, make sure we're all on the same page, communication is super clear, learn, collaborate, get excited, and then get out there and go do it, right? So pipeline review is not what a sales team meeting should be? No, not in my eyes. Because what I found is that I think the intent originally was
KEVIN MULRANEeveryone kind of share their forecasts and share their major deals and you can kind of all learn and collaborate on pipeline. It doesn't happen. The moment I'm done talking about my pipeline, especially I think too, especially in virtual, right? I'm on my next monitor. I'm doing my thing. I'm following up on emails. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. So I think keeping reps highly engaged. Now the pipeline is more of a one-on-one for me.
EDDIE REYNOLDSYeah, I agree with that. I would say though that when I worked at Salesforce, I got a lot of value out of like our team forecast meeting, mostly just because I would see how, especially when I was like new there, more senior reps would think about their forecast. So they weren't necessarily going deal by deal. Like here's all the nuances, but it's more like, well, I've gotten these deals. And so this is my commit and here's why. And then hearing the manager give them feedback and say, well, like really, like, why is that? And now I think a lot of this is, you know, your, your point about inspiration is really on point. Your point about serving best practices is like, if you're getting the whole team together, they should be either inspired or learning something. Right. Um, and I think that at least at Salesforce, cause it's such a mature organization, like by doing this regular cadence of forecasting, it gives each rep a better understanding of, do I have enough pipeline to hit my target? And then from there, it's like, how do I close that pipeline? And how do I generate pipeline? And just going around the horn with these best practices, this inspiration on how to generate more pipeline, how to close more pipeline and how to know if you have enough pipeline, those are really the three key elements to being a great sales rep, right?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, no, I, I definitely think so. Um, you know, and again, I, I've always just kind of used the
KEVIN MULRANEgeneral rule of thumb. Like if I'm doing majority of the talking in a sales meeting, it's a bad sales meeting, right? Like getting, I should be talking the least and just kind of, you know, orchestrating it. And if the team is doing majority of the, the input and the talking, then it's probably a better meeting.
SPEAKER_53Totally, totally agree with that. And that's just definitely what I've seen in great sales meetings.
OTHER GUESTI, what were you going to say? Well, last thing I was going to add quickly though, I mean, where I, where I think RevOps does have a
KEVIN MULRANEreally cool role to play here is like you said, like definitely making sure that the right things are in Salesforce. So you can quick, you create really quick reporting on what's going on. But I think, you know,
KEVIN MULRANEagain, RevOps has a really cool opportunity to say, Hey, according to our data, we're not converting here really well. Right. And then being able to talk to the right, like, what does the team think about this? Right. And again, I'm a big fan of preemptively saying, Hey, in tomorrow's sales meeting, we're going to talk about this, this, this, and this, be prepared. So you're not getting hit with it and trying to shoot from the head. You can be a little bit more thoughtful, but I do think RevOps being able to get that qualitative data based on the quantitative data and what's coming out
KEVIN MULRANEis a really cool way for RevOps to play a role in sales meetings.
EDDIE REYNOLDSI really want to dive into that. This is, this is something I've always found interesting. It's like, where do you draw the line with coaching between leadership and RevOps? I mean, so like,
EDDIE REYNOLDSif we use an extreme example, like within RevOps, you have like enablement. Right. And I mean, using an even more extreme example, when I worked at Salesforce, we literally had people that would sit down with us and like teach us how to sell that were not our sales manager. Right. But like, at least for me, personally, even though I've spent 20 years in sales, I'm hesitant to like, sit down with somebody and say like, Hey, as RevOps, we're going to sit down with your salespeople and teach them how to sell. If for whatever reason, like that's a line I've drawn, that's not something that I feel like we should be doing. But the flip side is, is like, I don't need to be the world's best salesperson to know that if you think your deal is going to close next week and you haven't had an activity in three months, it's probably not going to happen. Where do you see that line being drawn between RevOps reviewing the pipeline, asking reps questions, giving them feedback on best practices versus where it's really best that the sales manager or leadership do that? Yeah. Like I'll give you an example,
SPEAKER_49but I think one of the, one of the, like a really helpful report for me, um, when I was, you know,
KEVIN MULRANEmanaging a team, uh, 15 plus sellers, right. Each managing 30 to 40 ops. Like what, what was really helpful for RevOps was they, they were able to take the entirety of the pipeline and then kind of slice and dice and say, Hey, opportunities at risk report. Right. And these were deals that to your point didn't have any activity in the last 14 days or whatever it is. Right. But they're able to kind of slice and dice certain segments of the pipeline that were surfaced up to me. So for example, with coaching, that's where they surfaced up. Here's the areas to focus on. And then it was my job to go in and coach and do deal strategy, whether it was like one-to-one on the deals or if it was more around, Hey, the entire team is struggling with this one concept, right? We feel like this stage is taking way too long. Conversions from, you know, demo to proposals falling off, like wherever it is, it felt like RevOps was great at surfacing up those, the inflection points on where I needed to coach.
KEVIN MULRANEAnd then it was my job to make sure the coaching was, was being done. Yeah. I think that's a great example. And to run with that, what I wouldn't want to have happen,
EDDIE REYNOLDSespecially if this is like a first pass, is that you go in there with that, that report and then you talk to the sales rep and they say, Oh, I haven't updated my pipeline. I called them yesterday. I just didn't log in Salesforce. I don't, I don't know what's going on with my, uh, with my email, uh, inner integration. It's like, that's something that I think RevOps is perfectly positioned to address. And now they've done that. Now you have your report. And when you sit down with the rep, you have a really meaningful conversation instead of like, Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to log the call. Or there's like something broken with my email integration.
SPEAKER_55Always, always self is broken. Yeah, exactly.
OTHER GUESTExactly. For the rep's fault.
EDDIE REYNOLDSWell, we're almost at time. I think we need to wrap here now or either in a moment, unless Jerry, if you have any other comments, questions, or if we have anything from the audience.
SPEAKER_14I have a question, but it may be too large. So I'll put it out there and maybe it's something we can
KEVIN MULRANEfollow up with offline. Uh, because I see this a lot and I'm, I'm curious about your thoughts, Kevin on what RevOps can do to help this situation where you've got a small organization. Let's call it three to five sales reps, but no sales manager, most likely just the CEO running the sales organization. It's their baby. They're doing whatever they can and want to be deeply involved in every sale. But at the same time, because they're the CEO and they're trying to run every aspect of the business, they don't have a lot of other free time. For the sake of argument, let's say they're not dedicating any other time to think about their sales team and the pipeline until the sales meeting. And so that sales meeting now becomes an hour to a 90 minute meeting of pipeline review. Because even if sales were to document everything and offer the CEO the chance to asynchronously review and use the sales meeting time for more effective conversation, what do you think RevOps can do to help that situation? Or is that a, there's really nothing you can do that's going to be on the CEO to have to figure out a better way to manage their time
KEVIN MULRANEif they want to improve that? I think, um, a couple of things. This is a big question, so I'm sure we can touch on it and then, um, maybe a good opportunity to create more and more content on it for sure. But, um, the, the first thing I would say is again, like in, in using this similar example as before, you know, I would, I would love to be a part of every single opportunity of all of my reps, but you've got 15 plus sales people with 30, 40 ops each. You just can't. Right. And so what I would start to define, and you can, as RevOps, you can take a first pass and stab at it, um, and kind of bring that to the CEO and get their, their, their thoughts. But I think what I would, what I would start to do is say, okay, here's the entire pipeline, but the segment of the pipeline I want you focused on is here. Right. And that could be, that could be anywhere, right? Like one of the things I used to do, and I, I got pretty good at automating it, but after every single platform demo that was given, right, I would email the point of contact plus somebody higher up and just introduce myself and say, Hey, my team is speaking with your team. Um, sounds like there's some really cool opportunities for us to work together, but if I can be helpful, let me know. Right. And that was a way for me to get multi-threaded. And at the same time, it wasn't a heavy lift, but those that responded to me, I knew were, were more engaged. And if I put my time and attention there, we're more likely to convert them. Right. So thinking about plays, thinking about ways to segment your overall, like the entire ocean, how can you create segments of it that say, Hey, look, if you focus here, because again, for a CEO and for anyone that's struggling, a lot of things, wearing a lot of hats, it's all about, where can I invest my time that gives me the best, the best possible outcome and back for my buck. Right. So that's generally how I would think about it. Um, but I think there's a lot there because, you know, again, I think finding ways to proactively share information and again, back to like the insights and what we think the data means is also super important. Right. And that could be a quick summary at the end of every single week saying, Hey, here's, you know, just kind of like, uh, you know, feelings and thoughts and some hypotheses on the pipeline. Right. And put together of, and again, like less is more, if it's like this long, tons of word email, it's not going to get read. Right. But like bullets, terse, but again, like I, a CEO who was like, if you send me an email, it's not in bullet points, not reading it. It's not. Okay, cool. Like I knew how to communicate with him. Right. Um, so I think that's, that's where I would start is just thinking about from a pipeline
KEVIN MULRANEand from a sales perspective, where is their time best spent and how can we service up that information proactively for them? That's super consumable and not heavy lifting. Uh, cause if they try and get
KEVIN MULRANEinto every single deal, they won't. Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. They're also, and again,
SPEAKER_17there, there are also really cool ways to try to score your opportunities.
KEVIN MULRANERight. Um, now there's, there's ways to do it manually and scrappy. There's also ways to do it with, with technology. Um, but if there is, and again, that's just another way to try and surface up where they should be spending their time and attention. Um, that may be, but it can be different for every company. Like I've also had a report that was called the needle movers. This was the top 10 biggest opportunities over a certain dollar amount each quarter that I would proactively share with my entire executive team. Right. And what we do with a lot of our enterprise level accounts is we actually did, um, account mapping to an executive and our CFO, like you are the executive sponsor on this account.
KEVIN MULRANERight. So you can also kind of divide in Congress. So it's not just your CEO who's trying to play client facing your chief product officer, your head of CS, like anyone that's in more about leadership
KEVIN MULRANEcapacity that can quote unquote sponsor, be the executive sponsor on a deal goes a really long way as well. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
OTHER GUESTWell guys, this has been fun as always. I really enjoyed it. We got a wrap. We're at time. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us and sharing everything you've learned over the years in
EDDIE REYNOLDSleadership. Jerry, thanks for joining as well, sharing your insights and, uh, thank you to our audience for coming and joining. And I hope this was valuable for everybody. I will be releasing this on our podcast as quickly as possible, hopefully in the next few days. Um, so thank you guys. Super cool. Thank you.
